WEBVTT Kind: captions; Language: en 1 00:00:00.470 --> 00:00:04.230 Many forms than many, many are the ways that they can 2 00:00:04.230 --> 00:00:07.280 be seen or not seen in our universities. 3 00:00:07.280 --> 00:00:13.320 So the way that we see is that it can be like direct acts or it 4 00:00:13.320 --> 00:00:17.000 can be something that is infrastructures as well. 5 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:22.480 Yes, OK, now, now it's better. 6 00:00:22.480 --> 00:00:32.040 So as short IT it can be happening in many forms. 7 00:00:32.040 --> 00:00:34.180 OK thank you for the question. 8 00:00:34.180 --> 00:00:38.480 I I think the problem with how is it visible is that it usually isn't and 9 00:00:38.480 --> 00:00:44.020 that's the that's the most difficult part about tackling racism is is we 10 00:00:44.020 --> 00:00:46.510 know it's there but it's difficult to pinpoint. 11 00:00:46.510 --> 00:00:51.980 And and the making it visibility is probably about making all of ourselves aware of 12 00:00:51.980 --> 00:00:57.300 of racism being even in situations where we can't exactly pinpoint it. 13 00:00:57.300 --> 00:01:07.860 And that's the tough question, I guess. 14 00:01:07.860 --> 00:01:11.880 Good afternoon everybody on my behalf as well. 15 00:01:11.880 --> 00:01:20.700 I totally agree with the previous speakers with this theme, what racism 16 00:01:20.700 --> 00:01:22.500 is not. 17 00:01:22.500 --> 00:01:29.740 I think that everybody at our university and in the society should be able to be 18 00:01:29.740 --> 00:01:38.630 him or her selves and be able to contact and take into account his or her 19 00:01:38.630 --> 00:01:48.550 own experiences and to tell about them if they feel that they they will 20 00:01:48.550 --> 00:01:57.830 experience anything which is against their own own beliefs and ways. 21 00:01:57.830 --> 00:02:01.050 OK, alright, thank you very much for that so far. 22 00:02:01.050 --> 00:02:07.230 If if if Rosanna can chime in now, in your opinion and based on different context 23 00:02:07.230 --> 00:02:14.950 that is not Gu, what do you see racism to be and what perhaps it is not. 24 00:02:14.950 --> 00:02:19.910 Good afternoon and and and thank you for the invitation to be in this in this panel. 25 00:02:19.910 --> 00:02:23.850 And yeah, the question about racism and what it is. 26 00:02:23.850 --> 00:02:30.270 I think this is actually much simpler than than than we tend to think. 27 00:02:30.270 --> 00:02:40.070 I mean, there is definition of racism, which means it's it's prejudice, discrimination 28 00:02:40.070 --> 00:02:46.210 on the basis of your racial background or being or or your 29 00:02:46.210 --> 00:02:49.440 ethnic background. I think that's very simple. 30 00:02:49.440 --> 00:02:51.440 It's it's as simple as that. 31 00:02:51.440 --> 00:02:54.800 If you're being discriminated on the basis of your your your race 32 00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:59.640 or your ethnic background and that's racism, there's really, I think 33 00:02:59.640 --> 00:03:02.580 it's very simple and clear cut in that sense. 34 00:03:02.580 --> 00:03:09.230 So what it is not, it is. 35 00:03:09.230 --> 00:03:15.850 I, I, I, I have difficulties with with when we talk about racism as 36 00:03:15.850 --> 00:03:21.170 being complex, I think it's a quite simple matter. 37 00:03:21.170 --> 00:03:24.950 Are you being discriminated against because of your racial or ethnic background? 38 00:03:24.950 --> 00:03:26.930 If you are, then it's racism. 39 00:03:26.930 --> 00:03:32.630 If you're not, then it's not racism. Box check, Check. 40 00:03:32.630 --> 00:03:36.380 Yeah, thanks for that input. So. 41 00:03:36.380 --> 00:03:40.260 I could be in agreement with you that it is supposed to be very simple. 42 00:03:40.260 --> 00:03:43.820 It's it's supposed to be sorry to use this black and white. 43 00:03:43.820 --> 00:03:46.750 It is what it is. It isn't what it isn't. 44 00:03:46.750 --> 00:03:53.310 But in practise, for reasons that may be good or not good, it isn't that simple. 45 00:03:53.310 --> 00:03:58.120 So take scenario of you are a teacher and you've experienced something 46 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:02.150 in your classroom that in your mind is racism. 47 00:04:02.150 --> 00:04:05.850 But then, in the minds of other people, and this is 48 00:04:05.850 --> 00:04:08.650 an assumption you're making, it isn't. 49 00:04:08.650 --> 00:04:11.630 So you may end up not taking step about it. 50 00:04:11.630 --> 00:04:16.310 Or you may take step and the person you tell about it doesn't think that is racism. 51 00:04:16.310 --> 00:04:20.240 So how do we deal with scenarios like this? 52 00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:32.370 So maybe I start with HR. 53 00:04:32.370 --> 00:04:38.460 It is very important that everybody will raise up, take up the issues which they feel 54 00:04:38.460 --> 00:04:46.810 that they which is resistive or some some other inappropriate behaviour. 55 00:04:46.810 --> 00:04:48.660 And we are the university. 56 00:04:48.660 --> 00:04:53.520 We do have guidelines how to tackle these issues. 57 00:04:53.520 --> 00:04:58.980 For example, employees at the university, they every one of them, they 58 00:04:58.980 --> 00:05:04.440 have supervisor manager who deals with their daily work. 59 00:05:04.440 --> 00:05:10.300 And that manager supervisor is responsible for creating an environment, 60 00:05:10.300 --> 00:05:17.380 this safe environment in which everybody can work safely, safely and 61 00:05:17.380 --> 00:05:21.580 that supervisor needs to take care of that. 62 00:05:21.580 --> 00:05:29.400 Every one of us working at the university can, and he's Her issues will be taken 63 00:05:29.400 --> 00:05:38.620 into account and examined if any resisting thing has happened. 64 00:05:38.620 --> 00:05:45.460 So it's up to the supervisor to take care, and it's up to every one of us to 65 00:05:45.460 --> 00:05:53.590 make sure that the university community is safe to work within. 66 00:05:53.590 --> 00:05:55.390 All right. 67 00:05:55.390 --> 00:06:00.130 So perhaps I go to Nora because that was from the perspective of teacher. 68 00:06:00.130 --> 00:06:03.810 From the perspective of students,. Yes. 69 00:06:03.810 --> 00:06:10.850 So. I I think so. No. 70 00:06:10.850 --> 00:06:13.350 I guess I have some problems with this microphone. 71 00:06:13.350 --> 00:06:15.470 Maybe I learn it next time. 72 00:06:15.470 --> 00:06:20.670 So I I agree with Via those kind of measures are really important. 73 00:06:20.670 --> 00:06:27.690 What we as student union have been thinking much is the information about these issues 74 00:06:27.690 --> 00:06:34.010 like just the students for example know about equality and do do people in the university 75 00:06:34.010 --> 00:06:38.150 understand the situations that might be racist or or racist. 76 00:06:38.150 --> 00:06:43.530 So there are many, many things that we'll still need to learn more about 77 00:06:43.530 --> 00:06:48.130 and we are trying to learn every day so we can act better, the whole 78 00:06:48.130 --> 00:06:55.610 university and and the students as well, OK? 79 00:06:55.610 --> 00:07:00.270 I'm also thinking about the channels of reporting these kinds of things 80 00:07:00.270 --> 00:07:08.650 that they might not always be very inviting or easily found. 81 00:07:08.650 --> 00:07:13.690 As you may know, we conducted the the the survey on racism on campus in the end of March and 82 00:07:13.690 --> 00:07:18.370 we don't really have any detailed in the retail discount results of that yet. 83 00:07:18.370 --> 00:07:23.800 But we do know, based on the very preliminary looking at those results, that most of the 84 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:30.970 people who had experienced racism or racist acts on campus had not reported them, either 85 00:07:30.970 --> 00:07:37.140 because they felt it was difficult or they felt it wouldn't be any use anyway, or they 86 00:07:37.140 --> 00:07:40.780 felt that they were afraid to do that for some reason. 87 00:07:40.780 --> 00:07:44.560 And I think that's the problem. 88 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:48.690 Well, one of the big problems in this area is that if if you don't even have channels 89 00:07:48.690 --> 00:07:55.120 to properly deal with racism on campus, I think that's that's big problem and 90 00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:58.840 that should not be on the person who's experiencing racism. 91 00:07:58.840 --> 00:08:05.030 I think that should be on the university to fix that, fix those channels. 92 00:08:05.030 --> 00:08:10.310 OK, I I will come back to what you have raised China, but perhaps I 93 00:08:10.310 --> 00:08:14.450 go to Roseanna because we're talking about there are guidelines, there 94 00:08:14.450 --> 00:08:17.170 are procedures at the University of avascular. 95 00:08:17.170 --> 00:08:19.530 How about University of Eastern Finland? 96 00:08:19.530 --> 00:08:25.530 What at at an institutional level, How are you addressing this? 97 00:08:25.530 --> 00:08:28.250 OK, thank you. Well, first of all, I'll finish. 98 00:08:28.250 --> 00:08:35.710 The universities have to have a equalities policy, right? 99 00:08:35.710 --> 00:08:41.440 So there in our in the University of Eastern Finland, we have our Equalities 100 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:47.110 and Equal Opportunities Committee, of which I'm member. 101 00:08:47.110 --> 00:08:53.650 And we have to do plan every two years and we've just published 102 00:08:53.650 --> 00:08:57.170 our our this current plan for the next two years. 103 00:08:57.170 --> 00:09:01.880 And within that plan we've addressed issues on anti racism 104 00:09:01.880 --> 00:09:06.480 and how that is addressed at the university. 105 00:09:06.480 --> 00:09:14.670 We also have, UM, you know, instructions on how to handle 106 00:09:14.670 --> 00:09:22.660 inappropriate treatment and harassment, both for staff and for students and researchers. 107 00:09:22.660 --> 00:09:31.190 And we have bodies that have been structured to coordinate work. 108 00:09:31.190 --> 00:09:37.780 And basically what do I say? 109 00:09:37.780 --> 00:09:44.120 This body coordinates the the instructions and the processes and of course all 110 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:49.440 supervisors and teachers are are obliged to intervene whenever they they witness 111 00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:54.180 any inappropriate behaviour and and harassment in general. 112 00:09:54.180 --> 00:09:59.320 So I don't speak about harassment in in all terms including racism. 113 00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:05.040 And then we have anti harassment contact persons at the student union and also 114 00:10:05.040 --> 00:10:13.060 at the university level and so there are ways and and people 115 00:10:13.060 --> 00:10:19.480 contact people who can can be contacted when when you have an issue. 116 00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:29.350 I think the issue is reporting, so if student or staff member who 117 00:10:29.350 --> 00:10:34.850 who is basically experiences racism, so because we're talking about 118 00:10:34.850 --> 00:10:37.430 racism, I take that as the example of harassment. 119 00:10:37.430 --> 00:10:41.190 But so I experienced racism as either as staff member, 120 00:10:41.190 --> 00:10:46.770 as student and I need to report this. 121 00:10:46.770 --> 00:10:51.550 There is threshold on on reporting because first 122 00:10:51.550 --> 00:10:56.520 of all to take that incident forward. 123 00:10:56.520 --> 00:11:03.950 A person might be hesitant to do so because they are seen as maybe I will, 124 00:11:03.950 --> 00:11:09.870 I have short term contract and if I report case of racism, perhaps it's 125 00:11:09.870 --> 00:11:13.750 somebody in my department or it could even be your boss. 126 00:11:13.750 --> 00:11:18.590 You might be seen as troublemaker and you don't want to be seen as troublemaker 127 00:11:18.590 --> 00:11:23.710 because that could affect your you're afraid that that could affect your your your 128 00:11:23.710 --> 00:11:31.730 contract upcoming or you are hesitant to report that racism incident because 129 00:11:31.730 --> 00:11:36.680 you don't believe anything will come out of it. 130 00:11:36.680 --> 00:11:42.350 And and and that's that's that's a structural thing we have in in in not 131 00:11:42.350 --> 00:11:49.380 just at the university but even in the Finnish societal level the repercussions 132 00:11:49.380 --> 00:11:53.900 for racism are are like a slap on the wrist. 133 00:11:53.900 --> 00:11:58.260 So there's huge threshold to report it because why would I go to 134 00:11:58.260 --> 00:12:01.920 all that trouble to report it and nothing happens. 135 00:12:01.920 --> 00:12:06.780 I just experienced that violence over and over again by having to 136 00:12:06.780 --> 00:12:10.340 go over that situation over and over and over again. 137 00:12:10.340 --> 00:12:16.080 And then the third issue is that to who am I reporting this to? 138 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:24.210 I think that as person of colour, um, talking to somebody who can't 139 00:12:24.210 --> 00:12:32.700 identify at the situation as I can or can't understand the situation as I can is 140 00:12:32.700 --> 00:12:34.800 is is difficult. 141 00:12:34.800 --> 00:12:39.780 So, and if you do look at our Finnish universities, I'm not talking about 142 00:12:39.780 --> 00:12:44.170 UF in general, I'm talking about all finished universities as we've been 143 00:12:44.170 --> 00:12:46.920 talking lot about diversity, equity and inclusivity. 144 00:12:46.920 --> 00:12:52.920 If you look at Finnish universities in general and look at and we are all like we're 145 00:12:52.920 --> 00:12:57.290 very diverse, we're inclusive and extremely diverse, We're international. 146 00:12:57.290 --> 00:13:02.600 Yes, that's correct at the academic level, but go to administration 147 00:13:02.600 --> 00:13:04.620 and see what you will find. 148 00:13:04.620 --> 00:13:10.280 You'll see pictures of mostly middle-aged white women. 149 00:13:10.280 --> 00:13:12.520 I'm I'm just speaking very frankly here. 150 00:13:12.520 --> 00:13:20.360 So our diversity there is is very limited and it can cause difficulties for 151 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:25.990 people of colour when they want to go and report case of racism to somebody 152 00:13:25.990 --> 00:13:32.900 who would not be able to identify with with that issue. 153 00:13:32.900 --> 00:13:35.080 Thank you. Thanks Rosanna. 154 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:40.510 So I think that what Rosanna has done is basically pushing us to the direction 155 00:13:40.510 --> 00:13:44.970 of having critical conversation about this amongst ourselves. 156 00:13:44.970 --> 00:13:50.250 There are procedures in place, there are guidelines in place, but I'm sure 157 00:13:50.250 --> 00:13:55.410 we are also aware that some of this is not functional. 158 00:13:55.410 --> 00:14:00.860 So we are in 2023, what are we doing? 159 00:14:00.860 --> 00:14:06.320 So if you think passive by having rules in place, that's passive intervention. 160 00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:08.260 How about active intervention? 161 00:14:08.260 --> 00:14:12.560 If you're talking about university of university or being an anti racism, 162 00:14:12.560 --> 00:14:16.800 what are the stances that we are taking any reflection from? 163 00:14:16.800 --> 00:14:23.050 Maybe I put time on the spot first. Thank you. 164 00:14:23.050 --> 00:14:27.230 That's middle-aged white woman. Yeah, absolutely. 165 00:14:27.230 --> 00:14:31.100 Ohh. 166 00:14:31.100 --> 00:14:33.280 First of all, I totally agree with what Rosanna was saying. 167 00:14:33.280 --> 00:14:35.340 It's it's absolutely true. 168 00:14:35.340 --> 00:14:41.480 And I think that us only realising it's it's even offensive to say that 169 00:14:41.480 --> 00:14:44.920 we are realising that these measures are not enough. 170 00:14:44.920 --> 00:14:50.710 And now to think about ways in which not to change the behaviour of the people 171 00:14:50.710 --> 00:14:58.580 who are being attacked in racist way, but to change our behaviour into 172 00:14:58.580 --> 00:15:02.200 not allowing this in the campus in the 1st place. 173 00:15:02.200 --> 00:15:04.940 Not to be reactive but to be active. 174 00:15:04.940 --> 00:15:10.320 That's actually the big question and. 175 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:17.030 I think lot of that has to do with us. 176 00:15:17.030 --> 00:15:22.650 By us I mean us middle-aged white women and and the finished society in general being having 177 00:15:22.650 --> 00:15:30.010 been very happy and very self satisfied with the equality in our society. 178 00:15:30.010 --> 00:15:36.070 The problem is that equality has very much focused on binary gender equality and 179 00:15:36.070 --> 00:15:40.590 on maybe regional and maybe linguistic equality but nothing else. 180 00:15:40.590 --> 00:15:45.150 And now we need to step away from that self satisfied understanding that we are 181 00:15:45.150 --> 00:15:50.940 an equal sites and look at these intersecting, various intersecting. 182 00:15:50.940 --> 00:15:55.210 We are not just talking about race, we are talking about we just had this 183 00:15:55.210 --> 00:16:01.480 discussion actually at the meeting of the equity and accessibility group that 184 00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:05.200 we need discussion of accessibility on all levels. 185 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:09.920 So to talk about is the University of Ursula and accessible 186 00:16:09.920 --> 00:16:12.640 campus for everybody and it's not. 187 00:16:12.640 --> 00:16:17.200 And and then how do we go back to discussing the various ways and making 188 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:22.240 visible the various ways it's not accessible and through that to change 189 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:26.710 the behaviour of us in that situation. 190 00:16:26.710 --> 00:16:31.490 But I know this is very abstract but it's also I I guess it's about learning 191 00:16:31.490 --> 00:16:40.550 in the end 192 00:16:40.550 --> 00:16:49.670 at the university of Avascular we have house rules for our university community and one of the house 193 00:16:49.670 --> 00:16:51.470 these. 194 00:16:51.470 --> 00:16:57.070 One of these house rules is that respect and understand others point of view. 195 00:16:57.070 --> 00:17:03.240 I'm perhaps very naive, but I really believe in people and that we together 196 00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:10.290 as community, we can help help us to understand. 197 00:17:10.290 --> 00:17:18.670 I agree with this that we we talk about that we are an equal community, but we 198 00:17:18.670 --> 00:17:27.010 have these hidden structures perhaps which we need to be able to identify which 199 00:17:27.010 --> 00:17:33.030 they ever are and I hope that this racism server which we have done at the university 200 00:17:33.030 --> 00:17:42.380 that that will raise up these and give some answers what we need to do. 201 00:17:42.380 --> 00:17:50.270 I think that we taking me into account as well as middle-aged white woman as well, 202 00:17:50.270 --> 00:17:57.590 so so that I could and we all could recognise what kind of biases and prejudice we 203 00:17:57.590 --> 00:18:05.840 have which affect into our own behaviours, even though which are unconsciousness 204 00:18:05.840 --> 00:18:12.720 with which we don't realise that they exist within us when we are working here and 205 00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:16.500 dealing with them and encountering other people. 206 00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:19.160 So we we need to learn quite lot. 207 00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:21.940 I think more about these issues. 208 00:18:21.940 --> 00:18:28.040 What are from my experiences what I have been dealing with in my previous tasks 209 00:18:28.040 --> 00:18:35.750 when when I was helping managers and supervisors with the different kind of cases 210 00:18:35.750 --> 00:18:40.530 of inappropriate treatment that was one of my major tasks. 211 00:18:40.530 --> 00:18:43.320 Previously. 212 00:18:43.320 --> 00:18:47.380 I worked also for the Equality Committee committee. 213 00:18:47.380 --> 00:18:53.780 I was the secretary for that committee and faced some cases at the 214 00:18:53.780 --> 00:18:58.300 university and this what was talked about earlier. 215 00:18:58.300 --> 00:19:06.550 So that we don't see, we don't see the other person's point of view actually when 216 00:19:06.550 --> 00:19:11.930 he or she is talking about these experiences, racist experiences. 217 00:19:11.930 --> 00:19:21.300 So I think we we need to learn those things, how to find them in each other. 218 00:19:21.300 --> 00:19:27.610 Yeah, yeah, I could continue about the talk that you have already 219 00:19:27.610 --> 00:19:30.710 started about the learning and and the survey as well. 220 00:19:30.710 --> 00:19:34.130 So you ask what could be done like actively. 221 00:19:34.130 --> 00:19:37.830 Like we have passive, passive ways that we have already mentioned. 222 00:19:37.830 --> 00:19:42.030 And the active ways are the next step, the one we need to really take. 223 00:19:42.030 --> 00:19:46.910 And in the survey that we did as student union and the university together about 224 00:19:46.910 --> 00:19:53.360 racism in our university and our university community, we asked what we could do, 225 00:19:53.360 --> 00:19:55.640 what kind of actions we could we could actually take. 226 00:19:55.640 --> 00:20:01.020 And we still don't have the full analysis of the survey and the answers we got, 227 00:20:01.020 --> 00:20:07.590 but we got some really important information and some some things that I'm sure 228 00:20:07.590 --> 00:20:13.000 that will be useful in our work, in our work with these issues. 229 00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:18.440 For me, I think we need some education about these issues, the whole whole community 230 00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:23.880 together and we when we learn more about these issues. 231 00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:29.030 I'm sure that we will learn what are the most effective actions that we can take towards these 232 00:20:29.030 --> 00:20:37.100 topics and the what Pia was talking about, understanding the point of view of others, that's 233 00:20:37.100 --> 00:20:41.180 that's something that we really need to work on and that's something we actually discussed 234 00:20:41.180 --> 00:20:47.120 in the group that I was talking about in this week as well. 235 00:20:47.120 --> 00:20:50.720 All right, I I will go to Rosanna to give us at least 236 00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:53.640 reflection of what UFC is doing actively. 237 00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:56.960 But then after that I'm going to come to the audience, I will have question 238 00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:01.040 for you and I hope that you will join in this conversation. 239 00:21:01.040 --> 00:21:07.040 So Rosanna, what's besides what you have checked the boxes that we 240 00:21:07.040 --> 00:21:10.420 have an equality plan in place, this and this in place. 241 00:21:10.420 --> 00:21:16.250 What are you doing proactively as an institution? 242 00:21:16.250 --> 00:21:19.990 Thank you across for this question. 243 00:21:19.990 --> 00:21:24.890 I think it's pretty much similar to what other Finnish universities are doing. 244 00:21:24.890 --> 00:21:31.850 The the discussion in in Finland is is very new but very welcome. 245 00:21:31.850 --> 00:21:35.370 I I have been embracing this long time. 246 00:21:35.370 --> 00:21:44.610 I'm maybe just to give some perspective, I've been here, hey, today I've been in Finland 247 00:21:44.610 --> 00:21:52.700 back or back I should say back in Finland that was actually born here in in the mid 70s 248 00:21:52.700 --> 00:22:00.680 and my parents ended up moving away and one of the factors was racism, right? 249 00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:09.770 So then I moved back here exactly 30 years ago 250 00:22:09.770 --> 00:22:16.110 and it's really weird when I talk to my mother because the same issues 251 00:22:16.110 --> 00:22:21.550 we face now in terms of racism are the same things that she faced in the 70s. 252 00:22:21.550 --> 00:22:24.950 So in in way, it seems like we've stagnated. 253 00:22:24.950 --> 00:22:27.230 However, there have been ups and downs. 254 00:22:27.230 --> 00:22:35.770 So when I came back to Finland as young, very young adult 255 00:22:35.770 --> 00:22:44.550 coming to study here being frog as queen, you explained in your last presentation in the previous session 256 00:22:44.550 --> 00:22:46.540 them. 257 00:22:46.540 --> 00:22:55.790 I found myself in situation where we had an influx of Somali refugees 258 00:22:55.790 --> 00:23:02.530 and the Finnish society reaction then was quite horrendous, I should say. 259 00:23:02.530 --> 00:23:06.750 It was quite shocking for me coming from country like Kenya where, 260 00:23:06.750 --> 00:23:10.150 yes, experienced racism but in different way. 261 00:23:10.150 --> 00:23:15.070 And then I come back to Finland, my home country where I never had 262 00:23:15.070 --> 00:23:18.410 anything else as other than I have Finnish passport. 263 00:23:18.410 --> 00:23:23.690 So this is my home country and the first thing I'm told is go back to Somalia. 264 00:23:23.690 --> 00:23:28.350 And I was like, what? Then the situation gets better. 265 00:23:28.350 --> 00:23:30.730 There's more internationalisation in Finland. 266 00:23:30.730 --> 00:23:35.870 There's more people in, you know are coming in from different, 267 00:23:35.870 --> 00:23:39.830 especially in in higher education. 268 00:23:39.830 --> 00:23:45.100 So there was boom of internationalisation in in in Finnish universities and I 269 00:23:45.100 --> 00:23:51.400 expect you're just hand being as an international or local student. 270 00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:54.920 I don't know because I was very confused in my finish or my international 271 00:23:54.920 --> 00:24:01.650 still can't say and then but really the discussions in racism were never 272 00:24:01.650 --> 00:24:07.930 had and this is the first time now we're having this discussion in 2023 273 00:24:07.930 --> 00:24:11.130 and I'm thinking of a 30 year span in Finland. 274 00:24:11.130 --> 00:24:14.600 I've never had this much discussion about diversity, 275 00:24:14.600 --> 00:24:18.530 equity and and inclusivity on this scale. 276 00:24:18.530 --> 00:24:21.290 So I think that that that's really good thing. 277 00:24:21.290 --> 00:24:30.220 There was as I said the situation got better in terms of racism up until two 278 00:24:30.220 --> 00:24:38.950 When was it when we had our our 2015 and we had the far right 279 00:24:38.950 --> 00:24:45.810 wing in in in the government That was something that we saw spiralling down and 280 00:24:45.810 --> 00:24:49.750 and then it got better again and now we're having this discussion. 281 00:24:49.750 --> 00:24:55.150 But there's A and it's very confusing for me now when we're having these discussions 282 00:24:55.150 --> 00:25:01.110 in Hart at about equity inclusivity, diversity at very deep level. 283 00:25:01.110 --> 00:25:03.970 We've been discussing there have been trainings going on. 284 00:25:03.970 --> 00:25:09.830 So our universities to give you a practical answer our universities 285 00:25:09.830 --> 00:25:14.590 have been doing trainings together sessions together. 286 00:25:14.590 --> 00:25:20.640 My good colleague is on the Kauppinen from our HR has been working with HR and you've 287 00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:26.300 Mascular and in other Finnish universities to organise different types of training sessions 288 00:25:26.300 --> 00:25:31.160 and create awareness of diversity, equality and inclusivity. 289 00:25:31.160 --> 00:25:34.380 But on the other hand, look at the discussions that we're having. 290 00:25:34.380 --> 00:25:40.150 Politically, it's very polarised and it's very frightening in sense in 291 00:25:40.150 --> 00:25:45.420 terms of of being person of colour in Finland at this time. 292 00:25:45.420 --> 00:25:49.660 And and how is the discussion going on in society compared 293 00:25:49.660 --> 00:25:51.630 to what is going on in university? 294 00:25:51.630 --> 00:25:53.910 It seems like we're in two different worlds. 295 00:25:53.910 --> 00:25:57.800 But I'm happy to say that the discussions are there at universities 296 00:25:57.800 --> 00:25:59.850 now and I think that's positive thing. 297 00:25:59.850 --> 00:26:05.350 There's trainings, there's discussion of their campaigns and and all of those are are 298 00:26:05.350 --> 00:26:12.910 are good things because people become more aware and as I think was said in the discussion 299 00:26:12.910 --> 00:26:18.920 by one of the panellists that, you know, sometimes the racism, somebody has not actually 300 00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:22.260 recognised that their actions are racist. 301 00:26:22.260 --> 00:26:27.700 So there is that unconscious issue that you've never actually realised that is and that's 302 00:26:27.700 --> 00:26:33.240 where the, the the awareness comes in talking about racism is, is I think one of the 303 00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:36.420 biggest things that we can do, but when it comes to training. 304 00:26:36.420 --> 00:26:40.580 So my concern is that people that are interested in that 305 00:26:40.580 --> 00:26:43.860 discussion are the ones that will be there. 306 00:26:43.860 --> 00:26:50.720 So, but how about the ones that need that discussion and need that awareness, 307 00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:58.080 but they are not there, that's how do we reach those individuals? 308 00:26:58.080 --> 00:27:07.890 Because we do need, those are the ones that you need to to, to, to, to talk to. 309 00:27:07.890 --> 00:27:10.430 Thanks. Thank you very much for these questions. 310 00:27:10.430 --> 00:27:15.850 And I'm hoping that we're taking note of them and as as we go forward, these making 311 00:27:15.850 --> 00:27:19.390 the next plans for dealing with racism in our universities. 312 00:27:19.390 --> 00:27:23.380 But now to get the audience involved in this fast question 313 00:27:23.380 --> 00:27:26.250 that might seem trivial, but here goes. 314 00:27:26.250 --> 00:27:30.470 Is this conversation that you feel you need to be part of? 315 00:27:30.470 --> 00:27:38.250 You feel you need to be part of a conversation on racism in our university? 316 00:27:38.250 --> 00:27:44.390 Do you feel you need to be part of this? OK, good. 317 00:27:44.390 --> 00:27:46.230 Are you willing to participate? 318 00:27:46.230 --> 00:27:51.920 Are you willing to share in this moment why you may not be able to 319 00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:56.650 report as, as it has been said, reporting is very poor. 320 00:27:56.650 --> 00:27:58.950 Engaging in the conversation is very poor. 321 00:27:58.950 --> 00:28:04.810 We have the middle-aged white, white women taking step and having the conversation. 322 00:28:04.810 --> 00:28:06.770 How about us? 323 00:28:06.770 --> 00:28:18.200 Anybody wants to reflect on how the other public could be part of this conversation? 324 00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:31.220 Yeah,. I want to throw my voice. Yeah. 325 00:28:31.220 --> 00:28:33.020 Thank you. Yeah. 326 00:28:33.020 --> 00:28:37.810 The conversation is quite intriguing and it's concerns all of us. 327 00:28:37.810 --> 00:28:42.600 However, in your presentation earlier on, you made mention of the fact that we need 328 00:28:42.600 --> 00:28:49.090 to be resilient, we need to adapt, we need to do the need to do that. 329 00:28:49.090 --> 00:28:57.250 But the point is, if you cut open my flesh and you cut open another flesh, perhaps 330 00:28:57.250 --> 00:29:04.300 saying that This is why it is black, what type of fluid that comes out of it? 331 00:29:04.300 --> 00:29:10.600 Is it same as it appears with the eyes as reddish or it's greenish? 332 00:29:10.600 --> 00:29:16.530 So it means that we are all human beings and we need to be treated as such. 333 00:29:16.530 --> 00:29:20.490 In my home country, for instance, we we, we, we receive 334 00:29:20.490 --> 00:29:22.910 the the, the people called whites. 335 00:29:22.910 --> 00:29:27.270 I don't want to say they are also human beings, but where they find themselves, 336 00:29:27.270 --> 00:29:32.070 they are skin scholars like that, so why can't they also accept us? 337 00:29:32.070 --> 00:29:38.910 However, we are all trying to how what do you call an academic intercourse? 338 00:29:38.910 --> 00:29:40.710 We all trying to masturbate. 339 00:29:40.710 --> 00:29:45.810 We are trying to do something to put out there that this is what we can be. 340 00:29:45.810 --> 00:29:50.510 We can do as people of 1 dissent of assault. 341 00:29:50.510 --> 00:29:54.930 Because if you try to now bring in that line of discrimination, 342 00:29:54.930 --> 00:29:57.050 you are just people of colour. 343 00:29:57.050 --> 00:29:59.030 I I don't even hear that. 344 00:29:59.030 --> 00:30:03.410 So for me, for me, if you call people of colour, I'm not called 345 00:30:03.410 --> 00:30:06.390 people of colour and he would try to push. 346 00:30:06.390 --> 00:30:13.490 But see, some of them have put up kind of facade and kind of 347 00:30:13.490 --> 00:30:17.870 for not running that if you try to stand up for your own right, then 348 00:30:17.870 --> 00:30:21.330 they're gonna say that you are as college. 349 00:30:21.330 --> 00:30:24.370 You are, you are, you are, you are. What's the word? 350 00:30:24.370 --> 00:30:30.590 You are aggressive, but what you did to that person wasn't it so. 351 00:30:30.590 --> 00:30:36.620 So I believe that it is about time that we accept who we are and going to move on. 352 00:30:36.620 --> 00:30:42.440 But it is here and it is here because the the, the we in 353 00:30:42.440 --> 00:30:48.510 that part of the world, we are hospitable. We we we are friendly. 354 00:30:48.510 --> 00:30:52.460 We seem to care about everybody, but the culture here 355 00:30:52.460 --> 00:30:56.590 and elsewhere seems to be divergent. 356 00:30:56.590 --> 00:31:00.580 That is where perhaps this line of discrimination comes up. 357 00:31:00.580 --> 00:31:04.710 So for me, and if I try to answer it, I I spoke on my own accord. 358 00:31:04.710 --> 00:31:10.320 I believe that it is here, and it is here what defines you. 359 00:31:10.320 --> 00:31:13.430 Let's stand up for who we are. Afro. 360 00:31:13.430 --> 00:31:16.010 If we indeed believe that there is God somewhere. 361 00:31:16.010 --> 00:31:19.120 We are all created in His image. If indeed we believe. 362 00:31:19.120 --> 00:31:23.110 If not,. I walk on 2 feet, you walk on 2 feet. 363 00:31:23.110 --> 00:31:27.210 I speak, you speak. We we we meet and we discuss issues. 364 00:31:27.210 --> 00:31:30.570 Do I bring something reasonable to the table if I do? 365 00:31:30.570 --> 00:31:32.840 Another human being,. 366 00:31:32.840 --> 00:31:35.310 Amman, also contributed to the development of the economy. 367 00:31:35.310 --> 00:31:38.070 I'm not helping somebody to be who we want to be. 368 00:31:38.070 --> 00:31:41.700 So I think that it's about time we embrace each other and move on. 369 00:31:41.700 --> 00:31:47.590 I thank you for attention. 370 00:31:47.590 --> 00:31:54.520 OK, I will take two more reflections and then we we came back. 371 00:31:54.520 --> 00:32:01.630 Ohh yeah ohh do I have to start doing OK? 372 00:32:01.630 --> 00:32:09.830 I'm used to, well, I feel like all of us racism, racism, 373 00:32:09.830 --> 00:32:15.910 I feel like working towards it starts with you like starts with individual, because we always 374 00:32:15.910 --> 00:32:22.610 look at the big picture, but we sort of avoid taking responsibility, like individual responsibility. 375 00:32:22.610 --> 00:32:26.710 OK, the organisation has to do this, but how about individuals, 376 00:32:26.710 --> 00:32:29.110 the individual institutions? 377 00:32:29.110 --> 00:32:35.610 We should guide our prejudice because I feel like from my experience on my search for job 378 00:32:35.610 --> 00:32:43.580 I feel like the institutions prejudice has, it's it's so depressing because I feel like even 379 00:32:43.580 --> 00:32:50.520 your last name could avoid you even getting a job and I shared my experience earlier that you 380 00:32:50.520 --> 00:32:54.350 get you, you apply for job and then the response is I'm sorry. 381 00:32:54.350 --> 00:32:58.350 We are taking applicants from people who are based in Finland and in 382 00:32:58.350 --> 00:33:01.520 my thoughts I'm like I have been living here since 2014. 383 00:33:01.520 --> 00:33:03.770 You didn't even take the time to read the application 384 00:33:03.770 --> 00:33:06.510 so individual people in the institutions. 385 00:33:06.510 --> 00:33:11.110 I feel like the education should start with making it more practical. 386 00:33:11.110 --> 00:33:14.970 Making people take, like we have this kind of discussion. 387 00:33:14.970 --> 00:33:18.290 But how about practical things that will make the individual 388 00:33:18.290 --> 00:33:20.900 take responsibility, guide the assumptions. 389 00:33:20.900 --> 00:33:24.090 They are prejudice, because it it can be very depressing. 390 00:33:24.090 --> 00:33:28.440 You put in all your efforts, you know you have the skill sets, but just because 391 00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:31.550 of where you come from, you don't have the opportunity. 392 00:33:31.550 --> 00:33:37.030 And this is what's even we call the weather is depressing, but sometimes 393 00:33:37.030 --> 00:33:40.170 these actions, it can make someone get depression. 394 00:33:40.170 --> 00:33:42.960 Because I think I'm like, I can do this, but just because 395 00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:45.300 of how I look, I don't even get the chance. 396 00:33:45.300 --> 00:33:47.520 Because of my name, I don't even get the chance. 397 00:33:47.520 --> 00:33:52.970 So how about people taking it? 398 00:33:52.970 --> 00:33:55.930 I don't, I don't want to cry, but it's so sad. 399 00:33:55.930 --> 00:33:59.010 Like we've I've been talking about this since first year 400 00:33:59.010 --> 00:34:07.110 like it's 401 00:34:07.110 --> 00:34:12.500 OK, you don't need to come down. Just it's it's OK. 402 00:34:12.500 --> 00:34:21.770 It's OK, 403 00:34:21.770 --> 00:34:29.870 you would think. 404 00:34:29.870 --> 00:34:31.670 I'm so sorry. 405 00:34:31.670 --> 00:34:35.070 I didn't mean to cry, but it's it's just so hard. 406 00:34:35.070 --> 00:34:40.190 Like, I know I put in the efforts, the skill set. 407 00:34:40.190 --> 00:34:43.090 I know I can do the job, I know I can. 408 00:34:43.090 --> 00:34:45.730 But there's no opportunity. 409 00:34:45.730 --> 00:34:53.830 And from first year from Masters, from my degree to master studies, we are still talking 410 00:34:53.830 --> 00:35:00.470 about this and I'm thinking like how where are we going as people? 411 00:35:00.470 --> 00:35:02.410 Like, where are we going? 412 00:35:02.410 --> 00:35:06.640 Why should you be avoided an opportunity because of how you look? 413 00:35:06.640 --> 00:35:18.440 You know, but we still try. Thank you. 414 00:35:18.440 --> 00:35:20.560 One last. Yes. 415 00:35:20.560 --> 00:35:26.200 OK. I got. 416 00:35:26.200 --> 00:35:28.320 All right. Thank you. 417 00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:33.050 Well, for me, I I think I I wanted to say something like what she said. 418 00:35:33.050 --> 00:35:35.800 And of course it starts with with you. 419 00:35:35.800 --> 00:35:39.060 How do you perceive it and how do you react to it. 420 00:35:39.060 --> 00:35:44.100 But again, what is making this thing get worse is that like I was listening the like we're asking 421 00:35:44.100 --> 00:35:49.820 the questions, the panellists like you think racism howser season easier. 422 00:35:49.820 --> 00:35:52.840 Like it was really hard for them to speak it out. 423 00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:57.310 Like do they see it? It is there and how does it look like? 424 00:35:57.310 --> 00:36:01.840 So it comes into my mind is that there is big gap between those 425 00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:05.860 who experience and those who can maybe intervene. 426 00:36:05.860 --> 00:36:09.220 So my question is, of course you start saying that there's campaign, anti 427 00:36:09.220 --> 00:36:12.480 racism campaign, which is a very good initiative actually. 428 00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:14.900 But how is it done? 429 00:36:14.900 --> 00:36:19.820 Again, the issue of transparency, like if somebody has has been victim 430 00:36:19.820 --> 00:36:24.250 of racism, if that person reports, what happens then? 431 00:36:24.250 --> 00:36:26.370 Is there any communication? 432 00:36:26.370 --> 00:36:31.000 I think each comes now to the institutional frameworks at the institutional 433 00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:37.750 level, the transparency and how is it being handled. That's why you feel people there. 434 00:36:37.750 --> 00:36:39.650 They have lot of experiences. 435 00:36:39.650 --> 00:36:43.590 I'm just here like one month and two weeks, but I've not. 436 00:36:43.590 --> 00:36:45.570 I haven't, I haven't seen this. 437 00:36:45.570 --> 00:36:50.150 I'm kind of learning from other people, but the impression is that racism is here. 438 00:36:50.150 --> 00:36:54.510 But why is it not reported, If I may ask people here who has 439 00:36:54.510 --> 00:36:57.980 like reported how transparent the system is? 440 00:36:57.980 --> 00:37:03.460 I think the problem now is in the system, how do we link the victim to 441 00:37:03.460 --> 00:37:06.560 the people who can intervene at the institutional level? 442 00:37:06.560 --> 00:37:10.640 Forget about the communities, like going out of the university, that may be hard. 443 00:37:10.640 --> 00:37:15.420 It needs to go to the community and have awareness campaigning in all that. 444 00:37:15.420 --> 00:37:19.300 But if you can start from where people are working, studying then it can 445 00:37:19.300 --> 00:37:22.650 be easier maybe like create a good environment for portfolio. 446 00:37:22.650 --> 00:37:25.900 Like yeah, now we are integrated in this system. 447 00:37:25.900 --> 00:37:29.310 You know the problem is don't understand your system is in two in two parts. 448 00:37:29.310 --> 00:37:32.810 There is the the overt one like the one we know, like people will be like 449 00:37:32.810 --> 00:37:35.830 shouting, being aggressive and discriminating publicly. 450 00:37:35.830 --> 00:37:39.010 But the the covert one like, it's habitual. 451 00:37:39.010 --> 00:37:42.610 People cannot see it, but people do experience it. 452 00:37:42.610 --> 00:37:46.160 But how do you report that now? 453 00:37:46.160 --> 00:37:48.820 I think something we need to think about if we need to solve 454 00:37:48.820 --> 00:37:51.540 that problem, but the problems seem to be there. 455 00:37:51.540 --> 00:37:54.700 Yeah. OK. 456 00:37:54.700 --> 00:37:57.620 All right. Is it possible to ask the question? 457 00:37:57.620 --> 00:38:00.710 I yes. Yes. 458 00:38:00.710 --> 00:38:09.980 Yeah. I think this is tough one. 459 00:38:09.980 --> 00:38:20.930 Yeah. Can you hear? Yeah. So he's the better. 460 00:38:20.930 --> 00:38:23.040 Yeah. OK, yeah. 461 00:38:23.040 --> 00:38:29.180 So actually I wouldn't go into too much history, but I would just ask question, um, because 462 00:38:29.180 --> 00:38:35.310 now we are talking about how to communicate and report cases of racism. 463 00:38:35.310 --> 00:38:39.850 And for me the question is if I'm reporting something then probably 464 00:38:39.850 --> 00:38:42.250 I would need to know what is, what does it take? 465 00:38:42.250 --> 00:38:46.200 What is the process like from reporting to action. 466 00:38:46.200 --> 00:38:48.270 And. 467 00:38:48.270 --> 00:38:54.080 I don't know if the students or the community, the university community, the students 468 00:38:54.080 --> 00:38:58.050 there, they know the process, that process and they are aware of the structures 469 00:38:58.050 --> 00:39:02.100 that we have at the different universities for this. 470 00:39:02.100 --> 00:39:09.150 And how do we even communicate that there is this structure in place in the 1st place that 471 00:39:09.150 --> 00:39:13.160 would enable someone to know that OK, I have experienced this thing and I need to talk to 472 00:39:13.160 --> 00:39:19.860 someone and also thinking in my head like how long does it take for for action for me to 473 00:39:19.860 --> 00:39:24.940 see action at least even recognition that this thing did happen. 474 00:39:24.940 --> 00:39:31.900 I think I'll end, yes. OK. 475 00:39:31.900 --> 00:39:34.500 Sorry, I don't. OK. 476 00:39:34.500 --> 00:39:37.140 I just wanted to say couple of things to thank you for everybody 477 00:39:37.140 --> 00:39:39.420 who's who's talked and asked questions. 478 00:39:39.420 --> 00:39:45.160 I have two comments one is leading off of what Judith said about about the 479 00:39:45.160 --> 00:39:49.400 the covert racism and I hear the panellists were talking. 480 00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:53.360 I mean, this is very important about safety, but I would actually expand 481 00:39:53.360 --> 00:39:57.840 if the the definition of racism to also include comfort that people feel 482 00:39:57.840 --> 00:40:02.240 comfortable, not just you know, it may not be that your your your safety 483 00:40:02.240 --> 00:40:04.850 is threatened, but you may feel uncomfortable. 484 00:40:04.850 --> 00:40:08.740 When people say things or images or you know that these things we've talked about. 485 00:40:08.740 --> 00:40:11.460 So I would expand it from safety to comfort. 486 00:40:11.460 --> 00:40:16.820 And also the gentleman in the back mentioned about, if I if I heard right that 487 00:40:16.820 --> 00:40:20.510 you know, he doesn't want to be seen as person of colour. 488 00:40:20.510 --> 00:40:23.160 And I agree we are all people of colour. 489 00:40:23.160 --> 00:40:30.070 And I was at conference last summer where there was several ladies from several 490 00:40:30.070 --> 00:40:34.060 women from female researchers from they they had either been born in Africa 491 00:40:34.060 --> 00:40:36.350 or their parents had and they were living in Norway. 492 00:40:36.350 --> 00:40:40.520 And they were having real problem with the Norwegian authorities, because the Norwegian 493 00:40:40.520 --> 00:40:44.770 authorities that they were dealing with everyday in education and health would not admit 494 00:40:44.770 --> 00:40:49.320 that they were white because the Norwegians felt that, well, white, you know, I guess 495 00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:51.920 my guess is that it comes with such negative baggage. 496 00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:55.400 There's whole history of, you know, the white oppression and the colonialism. 497 00:40:55.400 --> 00:40:59.300 And so the Norwegians said we're not white, we're not white. 498 00:40:59.300 --> 00:41:02.040 And my point is we are white. 499 00:41:02.040 --> 00:41:04.160 The skin comes with history. 500 00:41:04.160 --> 00:41:09.080 We are not neutral, mainstream or you know, or just this kind of non colour. 501 00:41:09.080 --> 00:41:15.320 We have to as as people that are working at the university understand that our skin 502 00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:19.660 comes with baggage and that we have to take responsibility for that. 503 00:41:19.660 --> 00:41:22.000 But it doesn't mean that, you know, it's our that we're 504 00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:23.810 responsible for all all colonialism. 505 00:41:23.810 --> 00:41:28.090 But it means that we have to understand that we are colour as well. 506 00:41:28.090 --> 00:41:32.130 And to understand that, OK, so the first thing is to accept that yes, 507 00:41:32.130 --> 00:41:37.420 I'm white and that can be problem in some situations where where I, 508 00:41:37.420 --> 00:41:40.550 you know, where I could be racist to somebody. 509 00:41:40.550 --> 00:41:43.890 And I need to be aware that we are all colour. 510 00:41:43.890 --> 00:41:47.050 And I agree with the gentleman in the back that we're all human, absolutely. 511 00:41:47.050 --> 00:41:51.810 But you know we need we're not just just because we're white and I blend 512 00:41:51.810 --> 00:41:55.270 in, I blend, I blend it in as a migrant from the beginning. 513 00:41:55.270 --> 00:41:58.720 It doesn't mean that, you know, we're just kind of unknown that our skin is 514 00:41:58.720 --> 00:42:08.890 non skin colour is non issue, you know, So it is an issue. 515 00:42:08.890 --> 00:42:14.820 OK, I am,. I will, I will ask you to comment. 516 00:42:14.820 --> 00:42:18.860 But I know that Rosanna had her hand up at some point. 517 00:42:18.860 --> 00:42:20.660 I don't know if it was question. 518 00:42:20.660 --> 00:42:24.140 So I think I will start with Rosanna and then we will have 519 00:42:24.140 --> 00:42:30.070 reflection based on what we've listened to. 520 00:42:30.070 --> 00:42:31.870 OK. 521 00:42:31.870 --> 00:42:36.750 Thank you and and thank you for all that questions comments. 522 00:42:36.750 --> 00:42:43.790 First of all, I would like to send virtual hug to. 523 00:42:43.790 --> 00:42:46.770 Helena. Helena. 524 00:42:46.770 --> 00:42:49.230 Was it Helena or Helena? Helena. 525 00:42:49.230 --> 00:42:56.990 Helena, I'm sending you virtual hug. And don't despair. 526 00:42:56.990 --> 00:43:02.640 Not everybody in Finland is racist and and it can can get better and 527 00:43:02.640 --> 00:43:06.840 it will get better and there's but it can also get it. 528 00:43:06.840 --> 00:43:13.820 It gets it's it's an up and down. But we're with you. 529 00:43:13.820 --> 00:43:16.720 Um, so lot of questions here. 530 00:43:16.720 --> 00:43:19.580 Um, lot of things to unpack. 531 00:43:19.580 --> 00:43:26.870 First of all, the comment, OK, why I say people of colour is because. 532 00:43:26.870 --> 00:43:34.390 I think ignoring our colour is also ignoring the fact that we do have different 533 00:43:34.390 --> 00:43:37.490 we're all different colours and we're all different. 534 00:43:37.490 --> 00:43:41.890 We, we people come in different colours shapes and forms 535 00:43:41.890 --> 00:43:46.650 and for me it's it's I embrace my colour. 536 00:43:46.650 --> 00:43:54.510 I am proud of it and I see no reason to hide hide away from it or to 537 00:43:54.510 --> 00:44:00.320 kind of change it in any way or or to camouflage it. 538 00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:07.580 So I know in Finnish for instance I have noticed that it is there is this tendency to be very 539 00:44:07.580 --> 00:44:15.600 shy about saying OK how how do you say that a person is black They OK can I say Mosta or then 540 00:44:15.600 --> 00:44:20.260 they because they don't want to say Mosta then then they go to Toma. 541 00:44:20.260 --> 00:44:28.300 But even person from Southern Europe that's you know dog head is doom in Finnish and I'm 542 00:44:28.300 --> 00:44:36.440 like well same musta Black is black brown is brown white so white So what and and 543 00:44:36.440 --> 00:44:41.740 I this is where I think there's problem in Finland we've been blind to to this and and we 544 00:44:41.740 --> 00:44:49.290 kind of because we don't gather statistics on ethnicity and and we understand why is because 545 00:44:49.290 --> 00:44:55.410 we we we don't want to categorise people you know how they do it in the US or in the UK are 546 00:44:55.410 --> 00:45:03.490 you black this and we can be from so many different backgrounds and and when 547 00:45:03.490 --> 00:45:08.710 I've had to fill in those forms from my boxes always other because I never find anything that 548 00:45:08.710 --> 00:45:15.980 fits my my my definition of of who I am and and so that's good thing we don't have that 549 00:45:15.980 --> 00:45:20.860 sort of thing But on the other hand it shies away from the problem because when we don't gather 550 00:45:20.860 --> 00:45:28.520 the statistics on on how different people from different ethnic backgrounds experience things 551 00:45:28.520 --> 00:45:35.360 we don't have the data So then we can say we don't have data so we don't see problem it's 552 00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:40.110 it's it's it's hidden and and that's the thing that's been happened so 553 00:45:40.110 --> 00:45:42.760 long in Finland that OK so how. How do we go about this? 554 00:45:42.760 --> 00:45:44.630 And this is structural thing. 555 00:45:44.630 --> 00:45:47.130 It's very difficult thing to solve. 556 00:45:47.130 --> 00:45:50.530 And I can only hope that as as institutions have this 557 00:45:50.530 --> 00:45:54.450 conversation on how to solve that. 558 00:45:54.450 --> 00:45:57.590 The questions about OK, what do we do in practise when 559 00:45:57.590 --> 00:46:00.670 when there is an incident of racism. 560 00:46:00.670 --> 00:46:02.960 So now this would depend on where it happens. 561 00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:08.830 So if there is an incidence of racism in the university then there are those people 562 00:46:08.830 --> 00:46:14.130 who you report there the the contact people or or you inform your supervisor or 563 00:46:14.130 --> 00:46:18.570 your programme coordinator and then they take it forward. 564 00:46:18.570 --> 00:46:24.090 At least at our university we have contact people who then can take that matter forward 565 00:46:24.090 --> 00:46:29.880 and then talk with the person who has had that experience and then they also you know 566 00:46:29.880 --> 00:46:36.980 talk with the other counterpart if they are from the university. 567 00:46:36.980 --> 00:46:40.000 Incidents can happen and a lot of incidents tend to 568 00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:43.110 happen then out of campus it can happen. 569 00:46:43.110 --> 00:46:48.220 You know you're student or you're a visiting Researcher and then you have an 570 00:46:48.220 --> 00:46:52.580 incident which happens out of campus and here is difficulty. 571 00:46:52.580 --> 00:46:56.430 I think that from legal standpoint that is this the the 572 00:46:56.430 --> 00:46:59.500 responsibility of the university or not. 573 00:46:59.500 --> 00:47:04.040 So there's there's that sort of thing that that has to be considered but now 574 00:47:04.040 --> 00:47:07.680 if it is take situation that something happens on campus. 575 00:47:07.680 --> 00:47:09.720 So that incidence is is reported. 576 00:47:09.720 --> 00:47:13.060 It's investigated within the university. There's discussion. 577 00:47:13.060 --> 00:47:14.860 OK. 578 00:47:14.860 --> 00:47:19.540 It comes out that yes there is an incident of racism that's then turns into legal issue right 579 00:47:19.540 --> 00:47:24.860 So especially if they're you know what kind of maybe somebody was beaten. 580 00:47:24.860 --> 00:47:33.200 Up um then that comes then that's criminal issue and even name calling can be criminal 581 00:47:33.200 --> 00:47:41.540 issue one of our let reporters UJANI Ahmad has experienced 582 00:47:41.540 --> 00:47:48.320 lot of racism on social media and she she you know it's name calling and being threatened 583 00:47:48.320 --> 00:47:54.520 because she's Black and and she's reported then that to the police so then it so you 584 00:47:54.520 --> 00:47:59.140 report this to the police and there comes case So the police. 585 00:47:59.140 --> 00:48:05.080 Have to investigate this matter and when the police investigate the matter then they 586 00:48:05.080 --> 00:48:10.830 take it to the prosecutor who then deliberates and decides on whether this case will 587 00:48:10.830 --> 00:48:14.680 be tried or not will it go to court or not because in Finland. 588 00:48:14.680 --> 00:48:17.950 We don't have that system that ohh I'm gonna sue you that doesn't work here. 589 00:48:17.950 --> 00:48:21.790 The prosecutor decides whether that case is taken to court or not. 590 00:48:21.790 --> 00:48:29.140 So when it goes to that end in many cases unfortunately, prosecutor can decide 591 00:48:29.140 --> 00:48:32.470 that this is not an issue that they want to try in court. 592 00:48:32.470 --> 00:48:37.490 So in the case of Virginia Ahmed I'm this was not university issue but I'm 593 00:48:37.490 --> 00:48:42.450 just taking case example because this was on on on media. 594 00:48:42.450 --> 00:48:49.150 The prosecutor decided even though the perpetrators were known, they wrote with their 595 00:48:49.150 --> 00:48:54.060 own names, all different sorts of threats that this is case of It's it's, it's it's 596 00:48:54.060 --> 00:48:58.590 such small issue that it doesn't need to be tried now. 597 00:48:58.590 --> 00:49:01.950 This was devastating UM. 598 00:49:01.950 --> 00:49:05.440 From my perspective, it was a devastating decision because 599 00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:07.410 it just kind of induces everything. 600 00:49:07.410 --> 00:49:09.920 And This is why I said this is like slap on the wrist. 601 00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:14.460 So when I see message like that coming out and this is prolific 602 00:49:14.460 --> 00:49:19.070 person, um, that's known and this sort of case. 603 00:49:19.070 --> 00:49:24.310 And and I get very depressed when I see that kind of decision because then I think. 604 00:49:24.310 --> 00:49:26.410 I am, you know, nobody. 605 00:49:26.410 --> 00:49:29.630 And if I took my case and then, you know, prosecutor is 606 00:49:29.630 --> 00:49:33.690 gonna say that OK, that this is non issue. 607 00:49:33.690 --> 00:49:35.520 So why would I bother going forward? 608 00:49:35.520 --> 00:49:40.890 Because living that when you go to the police to you, first you go to somebody 609 00:49:40.890 --> 00:49:44.730 to report your case, then you go, then it comes police case. 610 00:49:44.730 --> 00:49:48.110 This is not very fast process. It can take months. 611 00:49:48.110 --> 00:49:51.170 And when you go to the police, it can take even year 612 00:49:51.170 --> 00:49:53.850 for the police to go through this case. 613 00:49:53.850 --> 00:49:56.170 So now I'm just giving you act. 614 00:49:56.170 --> 00:50:01.890 This takes year, but the police to investigate and then it takes year 615 00:50:01.890 --> 00:50:07.030 before it, you know, the the issue is in court or something. 616 00:50:07.030 --> 00:50:12.080 If it goes there and you're living this violence over and over again, 617 00:50:12.080 --> 00:50:17.480 because I understand the line, they'll say, you know, reaction, even 618 00:50:17.480 --> 00:50:20.260 name calling, can be very violent issue. 619 00:50:20.260 --> 00:50:24.600 And this is where I hope that the Finnish society actually 620 00:50:24.600 --> 00:50:28.690 realises how violent these feelings are. 621 00:50:28.690 --> 00:50:36.430 These experiences are to to us who experience racism and then when if it does go to court, 622 00:50:36.430 --> 00:50:41.350 then it takes very long time to go through the court and then somebody might be given 623 00:50:41.350 --> 00:50:46.880 four month sentence if you're lucky, or they'll get fine. 624 00:50:46.880 --> 00:50:50.400 Does it seem fair? Is this justice? 625 00:50:50.400 --> 00:50:54.160 I would say perhaps not, but this is the finished justice system. 626 00:50:54.160 --> 00:50:58.770 It's very lenient in in in sense. 627 00:50:58.770 --> 00:51:04.750 So this is, this is an issue and this is where then is, Kevin said in her issue. 628 00:51:04.750 --> 00:51:10.260 We have to adopt, but I think the first step is reporting and I I never 629 00:51:10.260 --> 00:51:13.620 would like to say to somebody don't report case of racism. 630 00:51:13.620 --> 00:51:19.840 I think that if we actually did report cases of racism then the the issue would come out 631 00:51:19.840 --> 00:51:24.960 more and then But then the person reporting that racism needs support. 632 00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:29.900 And that's where we as universities and our administration need to realise that we need 633 00:51:29.900 --> 00:51:35.640 to offer support to people who experience the racism through that entire journey, but 634 00:51:35.640 --> 00:51:40.180 then to also reflect on who are the persons giving that support. 635 00:51:40.180 --> 00:51:46.740 Because you need to have people you can relate to and who understand the situation. 636 00:51:46.740 --> 00:51:53.600 And not that you when you know first thing that when you go and report case of racism and say 637 00:51:53.600 --> 00:52:01.660 OK, I want to report that this and this person called me names and removed me 638 00:52:01.660 --> 00:52:09.930 or you know or hit me because of my colour and and then the person then starts 639 00:52:09.930 --> 00:52:16.330 an interrogation of Are you sure, was it because of the colour maybe the person was just an angry 640 00:52:16.330 --> 00:52:24.390 person who who was you know just being a violent person or they just don't 641 00:52:24.390 --> 00:52:26.590 like him. It's nothing to do with your colour. 642 00:52:26.590 --> 00:52:34.920 So having to do that then just kind of we need to have support systems for that 643 00:52:34.920 --> 00:52:41.400 and but I think that we as individuals also need to take the responsibility 644 00:52:41.400 --> 00:52:48.400 to give these messages back and back and harder and harder to to our administrations 645 00:52:48.400 --> 00:52:55.550 in universities to realise their issues. Thanks Rosanna. 646 00:52:55.550 --> 00:53:01.800 I'm I'm not so sure how to proceed as to whether have you have some kind 647 00:53:01.800 --> 00:53:06.700 of comment based on what you've been listening to or throw something else 648 00:53:06.700 --> 00:53:09.460 at you to to to keep the conversation moving. 649 00:53:09.460 --> 00:53:13.860 So I think I will go with throwing something else at you but feel free to step 650 00:53:13.860 --> 00:53:17.680 back and and and incorporate other reflections in your response. 651 00:53:17.680 --> 00:53:21.860 We are learning lot, think lot. 652 00:53:21.860 --> 00:53:25.640 And I I I suppose we all knew getting into this conversation that 653 00:53:25.640 --> 00:53:29.220 racism is something very complex, very dynamic. 654 00:53:29.220 --> 00:53:34.160 We also aware that we're not going to have easy solutions or even quick solutions. 655 00:53:34.160 --> 00:53:38.440 But at least one thing is that it's very it's it's systemic and it's structural. 656 00:53:38.440 --> 00:53:44.220 It's it is very deeply rooted at the bottom level. 657 00:53:44.220 --> 00:53:49.640 And I suppose that if we wanted to respond to it, we are supposed to take it as such and respond 658 00:53:49.640 --> 00:53:56.940 at also system, systematic, systemic, structural, structural level as well. 659 00:53:56.940 --> 00:53:58.900 Is that what we are doing? 660 00:53:58.900 --> 00:54:01.700 If you take university of your vascular I did. 661 00:54:01.700 --> 00:54:05.300 When I when we started, I read a quote from the vice rector. 662 00:54:05.300 --> 00:54:07.600 Then I read something from the student union. 663 00:54:07.600 --> 00:54:10.020 The chair of the student Union. 664 00:54:10.020 --> 00:54:14.720 In your understanding, are we approaching this as structural issue and coming up 665 00:54:14.720 --> 00:54:28.590 with structural level addresses, or how how is it working in practise? 666 00:54:28.590 --> 00:54:32.430 I'm I'm not sure I have an answer to that question, but I'm I've been thinking 667 00:54:32.430 --> 00:54:36.410 about this structural issue lot because like I said in the beginning, lot 668 00:54:36.410 --> 00:54:40.860 of these things are invisible because they are they. 669 00:54:40.860 --> 00:54:45.780 Also they seem invisible to us because they are repeated in daily activities 670 00:54:45.780 --> 00:54:50.510 that seem mundane to us and of course that's they are not mundane to 671 00:54:50.510 --> 00:54:54.190 the people who they experience them. Yeah experience them. 672 00:54:54.190 --> 00:54:59.710 And I think that's that's when we come to the question of what is structural is actually 673 00:54:59.710 --> 00:55:05.450 the acceptance of this mundane activities that's that's what is structural. 674 00:55:05.450 --> 00:55:12.090 And so if we have, we talked bit earlier about the the, the awareness raising and the education 675 00:55:12.090 --> 00:55:17.590 and I think we've been you said quite rightly that it's usually the people who are already 676 00:55:17.590 --> 00:55:22.390 aware tend to take part of these education, these training as well. 677 00:55:22.390 --> 00:55:27.630 But I think that think about people participating in this training is that then 678 00:55:27.630 --> 00:55:32.820 they go to their communities and their departments and their coffee tables and 679 00:55:32.820 --> 00:55:35.290 then that's when it becomes an individual responsibility. 680 00:55:35.290 --> 00:55:39.060 Somebody here said that people we all need to I think Rosanna, that we all need to 681 00:55:39.060 --> 00:55:43.880 take responsibility as well and and then it's my responsibility in that coffee table 682 00:55:43.880 --> 00:55:50.160 to say hey that was not OK and and take a stand there and and that's how these we can 683 00:55:50.160 --> 00:55:57.110 also if if we say that the structural oppression in any form not just racism but any 684 00:55:57.110 --> 00:56:05.340 kind of structural oppression is based on these everyday acts then we also 685 00:56:05.340 --> 00:56:10.030 have to act ourselves to change those everyday acts. 686 00:56:10.030 --> 00:56:14.270 And it's like, like you said, it's it's super slow, it's really slow 687 00:56:14.270 --> 00:56:17.190 and it doesn't help people who experience that every day. 688 00:56:17.190 --> 00:56:29.380 But that's one thing we can do 689 00:56:29.380 --> 00:56:34.920 in the University. Equity Equality Plan. 690 00:56:34.920 --> 00:56:43.150 It states that we aim to mainstream equality issues at the university, which means 691 00:56:43.150 --> 00:56:50.560 that we should have some kind of measures and procedures when we are making decisions, when 692 00:56:50.560 --> 00:56:58.370 we are implementing new actions or systems or whatever at the university, so that we would 693 00:56:58.370 --> 00:57:07.110 see those decisions through the eyeglasses of diversity and equality. 694 00:57:07.110 --> 00:57:08.910 I think we should. 695 00:57:08.910 --> 00:57:14.350 I'm, I'm not sure whether we have this mainstreaming issue going on at the moment, but it is 696 00:57:14.350 --> 00:57:22.630 stated in the Equality Plan and I think that we should have system where we always take these 697 00:57:22.630 --> 00:57:31.720 glasses, eyeglasses, see through diversity inclusive way 698 00:57:31.720 --> 00:57:43.320 so that everybody working at the university would be taken into account when making the decisions. 699 00:57:43.320 --> 00:57:48.570 Yeah, you already mentioned something about the university equality plan and we have equality 700 00:57:48.570 --> 00:57:52.510 plan in the student union as well and we are currently updating it. 701 00:57:52.510 --> 00:57:57.530 And the results that we got from the survey are going to 702 00:57:57.530 --> 00:58:01.050 be used in that process of updating the plan. 703 00:58:01.050 --> 00:58:08.090 And we are trying to come up with actual acts that we can do, not just like words 704 00:58:08.090 --> 00:58:12.600 that we are saying that we are trying to be more equal, but we are trying to focus 705 00:58:12.600 --> 00:58:18.180 on on actual stuff like actual procedures that we can be doing. 706 00:58:18.180 --> 00:58:22.340 And I still don't know what those acts are, but we are trying 707 00:58:22.340 --> 00:58:28.620 to learn and trying to find ways to do that. 708 00:58:28.620 --> 00:58:35.930 OK, where we are heading towards the end of the time slot for this. 709 00:58:35.930 --> 00:58:42.020 But I I think that we would miss if we didn't talk little bit about intersectionality and 710 00:58:42.020 --> 00:58:46.990 the the way in which something racism as as as I'm sure that 711 00:58:46.990 --> 00:58:49.270 we've talked. We've talked lot about equality. 712 00:58:49.270 --> 00:58:51.270 We've talked about discrimination. 713 00:58:51.270 --> 00:58:55.330 We're using different terminologies to kind of describe the things that 714 00:58:55.330 --> 00:58:59.450 can all sometimes turn out to be racism sometimes not. 715 00:58:59.450 --> 00:59:04.910 But also those those alternative terms also provide an escape for someone so that if 716 00:59:04.910 --> 00:59:09.870 they racially discriminated someone they can just call it something else. 717 00:59:09.870 --> 00:59:14.370 But nonetheless, that brings us to the point of intersectionality, when 718 00:59:14.370 --> 00:59:20.140 pile of characteristics of person then shapes just how much of A penalty 719 00:59:20.140 --> 00:59:24.180 you pay in, for example, a racist environment. 720 00:59:24.180 --> 00:59:28.520 So again, at least I'm sure this is something we're thinking about, but you 721 00:59:28.520 --> 00:59:32.800 could tell us I I wonder if I should start with Roseanna. 722 00:59:32.800 --> 00:59:37.230 You could tell us how you're how you're thinking about this in the policies that 723 00:59:37.230 --> 00:59:40.680 you're influencing, in the interventions that you can be part of. 724 00:59:40.680 --> 00:59:43.310 How is intersectionality something that is coming through? 725 00:59:43.310 --> 00:59:46.560 Is it? How are you dealing with it? 726 00:59:46.560 --> 00:59:50.620 Thanks Kevin that that's an interesting question and and of course very topical 727 00:59:50.620 --> 00:59:56.340 and and you know there's intersectionality can just be I mean there's this 728 00:59:56.340 --> 01:00:02.590 this very one good stereotype angry black woman. 729 01:00:02.590 --> 01:00:07.180 So is this the angry black woman talking about bringing, 730 01:00:07.180 --> 01:00:11.140 always raising up racist card? Right. 731 01:00:11.140 --> 01:00:13.340 So that's that's that's the question. 732 01:00:13.340 --> 01:00:20.540 Or so you You are a person of certain colour. 733 01:00:20.540 --> 01:00:26.560 Your gender, your age, your religion, Pack all of these into something. 734 01:00:26.560 --> 01:00:28.550 You face lot of different things. 735 01:00:28.550 --> 01:00:31.640 You know, your sexual orientation and all of that. 736 01:00:31.640 --> 01:00:35.090 So what are we doing about this? 737 01:00:35.090 --> 01:00:39.580 Well, I think all of these things come into the same discussion. 738 01:00:39.580 --> 01:00:41.380 I can give an example. 739 01:00:41.380 --> 01:00:46.240 We're talking about diversity and how do you want to show diversity? 740 01:00:46.240 --> 01:00:49.810 And in the beginning of this discussion I said middle-aged white women. 741 01:00:49.810 --> 01:00:56.770 And not to offend anyone, but just given, I make point about what what, what it is. 742 01:00:56.770 --> 01:00:58.730 When we talk, look, what are we? 743 01:00:58.730 --> 01:01:02.780 What do you see when you talk about diversity? 744 01:01:02.780 --> 01:01:04.830 And when you look at finish. 745 01:01:04.830 --> 01:01:09.510 Universities, let's look at our web pages and who do we see there? 746 01:01:09.510 --> 01:01:12.270 Young people. 747 01:01:12.270 --> 01:01:16.150 We don't see very many old people on our website. 748 01:01:16.150 --> 01:01:22.000 We don't see many people with disabilities on our websites. 749 01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:29.060 We don't see older men, older women, or maybe older men, but older women. 750 01:01:29.060 --> 01:01:32.610 So, you know, you've got that entire things. 751 01:01:32.610 --> 01:01:37.350 So are we talking about our universities just for young 752 01:01:37.350 --> 01:01:41.230 people, young trendy people from somewhere? 753 01:01:41.230 --> 01:01:46.590 And then, you know, then we put the token colour colours in there. 754 01:01:46.590 --> 01:01:52.570 You have different shades of black and brown on on the web pages. 755 01:01:52.570 --> 01:01:58.520 Are we showing the disabled or in in different ways are we showing 756 01:01:58.520 --> 01:02:01.260 what we are or are we showing what we want to be? 757 01:02:01.260 --> 01:02:03.200 So that that's the other thing. 758 01:02:03.200 --> 01:02:07.570 I think that's one of our communications persons said to us that do you want 759 01:02:07.570 --> 01:02:11.680 to show what we are or do you want to show what we want to be. 760 01:02:11.680 --> 01:02:13.710 So. 761 01:02:13.710 --> 01:02:19.470 I think The thing is that we're discussing it and which is good as I've said that. 762 01:02:19.470 --> 01:02:25.970 But then to take this into further action at least from my own action is 763 01:02:25.970 --> 01:02:29.330 is talking about it and bringing it out more and more often. 764 01:02:29.330 --> 01:02:35.730 I happen to be within working in admin and and I keep saying that hey our 765 01:02:35.730 --> 01:02:41.670 university services are not diverse in in terms of of the we talk about diversity 766 01:02:41.670 --> 01:02:44.170 but our university services are not diverse. 767 01:02:44.170 --> 01:02:46.230 So what are we going to do about it? 768 01:02:46.230 --> 01:02:50.920 Does this mean that we recruit more people from different diverse backgrounds perhaps 769 01:02:50.920 --> 01:02:54.970 yes, that's something we should do and and that's challenge. 770 01:02:54.970 --> 01:03:00.790 Maybe that's what I would maybe to end is that. 771 01:03:00.790 --> 01:03:08.010 I would be challenging my own university and and other universities to think 772 01:03:08.010 --> 01:03:15.650 more about making our administrative structures more diverse. 773 01:03:15.650 --> 01:03:21.690 The different committees that you have, so is your Equalities Committee diverse? 774 01:03:21.690 --> 01:03:31.000 Can the diverse academic community relate to your Equalities Committee or your your. 775 01:03:31.000 --> 01:03:35.060 Equalities committee, or your your other structures? 776 01:03:35.060 --> 01:03:36.860 Or to your leadership? 777 01:03:36.860 --> 01:03:40.430 Or, you know, how diverse are your professors? 778 01:03:40.430 --> 01:03:45.990 And so forth. So this is this is I think you know. 779 01:03:45.990 --> 01:03:52.420 I challenged the university administrations in in Finland to think about that 780 01:03:52.420 --> 01:03:56.250 and and thank you now because I have to leave for another event. 781 01:03:56.250 --> 01:04:01.620 So I'm going to weigh out and I wish you all good day and and strength to 782 01:04:01.620 --> 01:04:09.630 those going through hard times and I hope you get some support and I 783 01:04:09.630 --> 01:04:14.840 would also hope that you know Frank creates recording this. 784 01:04:14.840 --> 01:04:21.890 So I would challenge you and your vascular university centres recording to our university 785 01:04:21.890 --> 01:04:29.290 leaderships so that they can also see that discussions on the ground and how it actually affects 786 01:04:29.290 --> 01:04:34.590 affects people who go through through an experience that racism. 787 01:04:34.590 --> 01:04:44.610 It would be quite powerful message but have good Africa day despite the hardship. 788 01:04:44.610 --> 01:04:46.880 Thanks. Thanks lot Rosina for your time. 789 01:04:46.880 --> 01:04:51.170 Thank you for your input and yes good challenge to Frank 790 01:04:51.170 --> 01:04:55.250 and the all the Africa Day organising team. 791 01:04:55.250 --> 01:04:59.110 But yes, if we continue now, we can continue in row and then 792 01:04:59.110 --> 01:05:01.810 we will finalise and and close this chapter. 793 01:05:01.810 --> 01:05:06.470 So let's start with Nora, OK? 794 01:05:06.470 --> 01:05:12.540 Rosanna already talked so many good points, so you ask about intersectionality 795 01:05:12.540 --> 01:05:16.320 and I almost forgot the whole question. 796 01:05:16.320 --> 01:05:24.600 But but about that issue, I think it's really important to see international intersectionality 797 01:05:24.600 --> 01:05:30.160 in our university and all these issues when we are talking about, for example, discrimination 798 01:05:30.160 --> 01:05:35.600 or racism that we don't just focus on one issue that we see, see all the different 799 01:05:35.600 --> 01:05:37.980 factors that affect this issues. 800 01:05:37.980 --> 01:05:43.840 And we need to understand that individuals, that we are all different. 801 01:05:43.840 --> 01:05:51.880 Individuals who come from different backgrounds and different different like we have 802 01:05:51.880 --> 01:05:58.310 different ways that we are as human being that we understand how those affect the 803 01:05:58.310 --> 01:06:06.520 the way we are and don't just focus on on one issue at time. 804 01:06:06.520 --> 01:06:11.700 I I think intersectionality is very is very good concept when we want to understand like 805 01:06:11.700 --> 01:06:16.400 cuisine said and like Nora also said that not everybody is just one thing. 806 01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:22.920 We are not all, we are not defined just by 1 characteristic, but sometimes it's also necessary 807 01:06:22.920 --> 01:06:28.320 to name things and that's I think that's what we are doing trying to do all the time to to 808 01:06:28.320 --> 01:06:35.170 talk about campus session, accessible environment for all but also every now and then to name 809 01:06:35.170 --> 01:06:39.280 the actual things that prevent the campus from being that so. 810 01:06:39.280 --> 01:06:51.680 So I guess we have to do both 811 01:06:51.680 --> 01:06:53.720 intersectionality. 812 01:06:53.720 --> 01:06:58.940 I think I know what that means, but I'm quite sure that most of the people at the 813 01:06:58.940 --> 01:07:07.230 University of Avascular wouldn't know what that term would mean. 814 01:07:07.230 --> 01:07:12.230 The large umbrella is important. 815 01:07:12.230 --> 01:07:19.090 So as you have also mentioned many times here that we all are human 816 01:07:19.090 --> 01:07:25.320 beings and all of us needs to be treated as such. 817 01:07:25.320 --> 01:07:29.990 Despite of our different, we are all different in some some ways. 818 01:07:29.990 --> 01:07:38.850 So this bigger umbrella and Tyler mentioned earlier accessibility 819 01:07:38.850 --> 01:07:45.780 whether that would be one of the terms to be used in this been in this aspect. 820 01:07:45.780 --> 01:07:48.550 So. 821 01:07:48.550 --> 01:07:54.830 I just would like us to be more conscious and to be to know 822 01:07:54.830 --> 01:07:59.190 more and to learn more and to try to waken up. 823 01:07:59.190 --> 01:08:04.470 Also those who are not interested and not conscious about these issues. 824 01:08:04.470 --> 01:08:10.220 Rosanna mentioned earlier that her university offers 825 01:08:10.220 --> 01:08:13.550 training with our university as well. 826 01:08:13.550 --> 01:08:21.370 We offer as well training in multicultural, international, intercultural issues. 827 01:08:21.370 --> 01:08:26.870 But as mentioned, only those people attend who are interested 828 01:08:26.870 --> 01:08:29.610 and who already knows about these things. 829 01:08:29.610 --> 01:08:36.810 So I think our common effort is to try to get those people, those human 830 01:08:36.810 --> 01:08:42.930 beings, also interested in these issues who not yet are. 831 01:08:42.930 --> 01:08:44.730 Thank you very much. 832 01:08:44.730 --> 01:08:51.500 Sorry, Lauren, you know, and I'll shout no, no, no, I just really quick thing 833 01:08:51.500 --> 01:08:55.120 from all of this, which was wonderful, wonderful discussion. 834 01:08:55.120 --> 01:09:00.300 One, I was just thinking of, you know, one concrete step earlier today, 835 01:09:00.300 --> 01:09:06.970 Nellie from the Ministry of Education and Culture and also Helena entrepreneur 836 01:09:06.970 --> 01:09:10.370 and we're talking about anonymous recruitment. 837 01:09:10.370 --> 01:09:14.770 And I was wondering is this something that the university could undertake. 838 01:09:14.770 --> 01:09:20.830 You know that when recruiting anyone that it could be done anonymously so that 839 01:09:20.830 --> 01:09:25.780 there wouldn't be you know the name or the OR the other things that that that 840 01:09:25.780 --> 01:09:33.270 you know would would maybe you know flash information that that is not that that 841 01:09:33.270 --> 01:09:35.430 what I want to say is a barrier to accessibility. 842 01:09:35.430 --> 01:09:38.660 We were just talking about possibility this is also accessibility 843 01:09:38.660 --> 01:09:40.860 for jobs so this could be concrete step. 844 01:09:40.860 --> 01:09:51.290 The university could take is anonymous recruitment. 845 01:09:51.290 --> 01:09:54.820 OK, I I thought that PO answer to comment on that but yeah. 846 01:09:54.820 --> 01:10:00.780 OK I you wanted to comment on that. Yes, yes, please. 847 01:10:00.780 --> 01:10:07.670 That is one of the action in our universities accessibility plan because the university 848 01:10:07.670 --> 01:10:14.600 has actually launched new recruitment system and we took some action in the access 849 01:10:14.600 --> 01:10:24.950 to and Indians, but I'm not sure how it is going on Anyway. 850 01:10:24.950 --> 01:10:31.120 Good. Good as well. 851 01:10:31.120 --> 01:10:34.960 Definitely. All right. 852 01:10:34.960 --> 01:10:42.810 OK, so I will attempt to close this and I say attempt because I don't think it's very easy to 853 01:10:42.810 --> 01:10:47.670 summarise this into any, but it is important that we have something to take away. 854 01:10:47.670 --> 01:10:51.850 You have things to take away and it's important for you to have something 855 01:10:51.850 --> 01:10:55.120 to take away for what you can influence going forward. 856 01:10:55.120 --> 01:11:02.130 So one thing that we have confirmed is that there are problems with regards 857 01:11:02.130 --> 01:11:06.520 to racism and we know they've been there for very long time. 858 01:11:06.520 --> 01:11:10.260 If we listened to Roseanna, her parents experienced something 859 01:11:10.260 --> 01:11:14.040 in the 70s that she is experiencing in 2023. 860 01:11:14.040 --> 01:11:17.680 So there's not too much progress within the university. 861 01:11:17.680 --> 01:11:24.040 It's new conversation but so we're confirming it's new conversation, but it's real. 862 01:11:24.040 --> 01:11:28.480 And as as as we were talking, you realise that people are relating with this 863 01:11:28.480 --> 01:11:30.950 very differently, people experience it very differently. 864 01:11:30.950 --> 01:11:32.750 So it's very complex. 865 01:11:32.750 --> 01:11:35.820 It's very nuanced, meaning that you need equally complex 866 01:11:35.820 --> 01:11:40.060 and equally nuanced ways to deal with it. 867 01:11:40.060 --> 01:11:45.180 One of the biggest issues, it appears, is responsibility or owning it. 868 01:11:45.180 --> 01:11:49.020 At what level is racism as problem? Being owned? 869 01:11:49.020 --> 01:11:51.900 Is it being owned at the levels that matters the most? 870 01:11:51.900 --> 01:11:53.700 The most. 871 01:11:53.700 --> 01:11:55.960 So that is very important place to start the conversation. 872 01:11:55.960 --> 01:11:59.180 We need to take ownership. We have things to own. 873 01:11:59.180 --> 01:12:03.300 This structure and its representatives has things to own. 874 01:12:03.300 --> 01:12:05.280 And then there's lot of work to do. 875 01:12:05.280 --> 01:12:10.060 And it appears that we agree that the place we should start is understanding some 876 01:12:10.060 --> 01:12:13.650 more because there is more information and we have roadblock. 877 01:12:13.650 --> 01:12:16.430 We did say that there's not enough reporting being done. 878 01:12:16.430 --> 01:12:21.040 So the challenge is we got here and we talked right. 879 01:12:21.040 --> 01:12:25.750 So it means there are ways to actually get to hear what these experiences are. 880 01:12:25.750 --> 01:12:31.230 So don't just be satisfied that all we please to salvage, they 881 01:12:31.230 --> 01:12:34.350 didn't respond, find another way, make it work. 882 01:12:34.350 --> 01:12:36.960 Make sure that you know what is happening, what are 883 01:12:36.960 --> 01:12:38.910 the shapes, what are the forms of it. 884 01:12:38.910 --> 01:12:42.670 And then actively, let's come up with with solutions. 885 01:12:42.670 --> 01:12:47.000 So it's lot more work and support. Support was mentioned. 886 01:12:47.000 --> 01:12:51.750 Support is very important as we're fixing the broken system. 887 01:12:51.750 --> 01:12:55.140 In the meanwhile, let's make sure that those who allowed us to understand 888 01:12:55.140 --> 01:13:00.130 that it's broken system are not lost on the way. 889 01:13:00.130 --> 01:13:07.050 That's my summary. Does somebody want to say something? 890 01:13:07.050 --> 01:13:08.850 All right. OK. 891 01:13:08.850 --> 01:13:16.220 I will throw this back to Frank. 892 01:13:16.220 --> 01:13:18.020 Yeah. 893 01:13:18.020 --> 01:13:23.430 Thank you, Queen, and thanks to very kind panellist for joining us today. 894 01:13:23.430 --> 01:13:31.370 You're up up this session now and we take a break our we're having our poster session, 895 01:13:31.370 --> 01:13:38.290 which starts in about 5 minutes or so, Should have started already, but because we 896 01:13:38.290 --> 01:13:41.410 have to just finalise few things, you'll find us right here. 897 01:13:41.410 --> 01:13:45.150 So in the next 5 minutes or so you can join us in the 898 01:13:45.150 --> 01:13:48.510 panel area for those who will be present. 899 01:13:48.510 --> 01:13:55.550 I'm also reminding you that at 16 we'll be having very interesting discussion 900 01:13:55.550 --> 01:14:00.500 or dialogue between Africans from Africa and Africans from Finland, who we'll be 901 01:14:00.500 --> 01:14:07.180 talking about as some of the expected expectations we are having for each other 902 01:14:07.180 --> 01:14:11.940 and where the challenges or barriers are in the process. 903 01:14:11.940 --> 01:14:16.180 So thank you so much and have a good afternoon and enjoy the rest 904 01:14:16.180 --> 01:14:18.440 of the programme with us for those who are still here. 905 01:14:18.440 --> 01:14:21.650 Thank you. Thank you so much.